Whole Health and Transforming Healthcare Systems With Tracy Gaudet, MD

- In today's increasingly divisive political climate, one thing most people can still agree on is that the healthcare system is not working and is in need of change. This moment may serve as a critical inflection point that determines the future of healthcare practice, providing an opportunity for change makers to help shape that future. - Asking those questions can be so important, and holding that person as a human being, not a medical problem you need to fix, is a huge shift, and it is life changing for the person, and I've seen it be life changing for the providers too. - On this episode of "Pathways to Well-Being," we welcome whole health pioneer and featured 2025 AIC speaker, Dr. Tracy Gaudet. Dr. Gaudet has years of experience as an agent of change in healthcare systems, and she'll discuss how we as individual practitioners and members of the functional medicine community can help transform the healthcare system to include a greater focus on preventative, whole person, patient-centered care and how functional medicine can be a catalyst for this change. We're so excited to learn today. Welcome to the show, Tracy. - Thank you so much, Kalea. It's great to be here. - Well, we've been following you for quite some time, and we know that you have this storied career in integrative medicine and you're known as a pioneer of the health movement. So to get our episode started today, will you share with us a little bit how you first became interested in this idea of whole health, which is a theme that we'll revisit throughout this entire episode. - Yeah, for sure, Kalea, and I'll be quick because I could otherwise tell my life's story, but in reflecting on that, I was born interested in this. I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous, but I was actually, a little interesting tidbit, I was not pre-med undergrad because I thought the medical paradigm didn't fit my values around holistic approaches. So I was psychology and sociology, and so I came through that door of I didn't have the term whole health, but you know, much more whole personal holistic approaches. Wanted to be in healthcare, couldn't find a doorway in that actually fit. So I did end up going back, as you know, and getting my medical degree and then chose OBGYN because it seemed like a holistic approach to health and well-being relative to other medical practices. So I just kind of have been lucky to follow the path as it has revealed itself. - Well, all of our listeners who are navigating their own path through health and wellness and medicine, probably that's a good thing to note that you can find the areas that inspire you and follow those. For those who may not be familiar with this term, whole health, will you talk to us a little bit about what that means? I know it means a lot to you, but give us a primer. - Yeah, I'm really glad you asked because one of the things that's happening right now is the term is getting used everywhere, and there's less and less of fidelity, I think, to what we actually mean by the term. So I'm glad that you asked. And we really coined in my work that lots of people have used that phrase, but we coined that work in the VA when we were trying to describe this transformation. And so the kind of definition that we have used, which highlights the key elements of whole health, is that whole health both empowers people and equips people, so intrinsically helps people find their intrinsic motivation, and then equipping people with the skills and the support they need to really take charge of their life and health so that they can live their most meaningful life. So it's a paradigm shift, and the goal becomes not just disease management and prevention, but how does the system help people live their fullest life? So it's a big transformation if you really get that understanding. - Yeah, well, as a functional medicine practitioner, listening to you offer that description, I'm thinking it seems like functional medicine is really uniquely well suited to aid in this transformation. Are there some commonalities or connecting points or overlap that you feel like would be helpful to highlight between whole health and the functional medicine model? - Oh, for sure. And I think that the way I conceive of it, Kalea, is that whole health is kind of the broader system transformation. But you're absolutely right. Functional medicine has been a pioneering leading edge, trying to drive transformation for my whole lifetime anyway, and that's been getting long. Another topic, but really fundamentally saying, "Let's stop just attacking symptoms of problems. How do we get at root causes?" So the entire approach of functional medicine is completely aligned and integral, I think, to what I would see as a system change of whole health. So there's a lot of alignments. I think the opportunity, and I know we're going to spend time diving into this, is for a long time, functional medicine, along with some other more holistic approaches, have been working outside of the dominant paradigm. The reimbursement's not aligned. The system isn't really designed to practice this process way. You know that. You're a practicing person and you live it every day. So the question is, can we now drive a change so that the dominant paradigm is what functional medicine has been driving towards all this time? - Well, yeah, let's do that. - Yeah, let's do that! - Let's talk about that and make that happen! Because we know that much of your career has been dedicated to transforming these healthcare systems. And you provide. Brought the whole health movement to the VA. You're the founding director of the Whole Health Institute. What are some important or really profound lessons that you have learned as you brought these systems into these larger organizations? - Oh, well, I've been on my, of course, on my own learning journey. And so I'll go back to my early, early years when I started the fellowship with Andy Weil at University of Arizona. And I laugh now, Kalea, I was one year out of residency. There was. And I built the whole thing with Andy and out of whole cloth. And I remember getting there and thinking, why would there be any resistance to this? I mean, I couldn't conceive of truly, like, who would oppose this? This is about optimizing people's health and well-being. It's not rejecting traditional medicine, conventional medicine, like, what? And now I look at it, I laugh, and I think, "Oh, man, so naive." And I think what I was naive about was the system transformation. Like, I didn't understand that. I thought, well, we'll just integrate these approaches and everything will be great. So we started educating clinicians and how to do that and sending them back into the system that wasn't designed to really function that way. So then I was like, "Oh, man, we have to, we really have to figure out how the health system needs to change." So I went to Duke after that and we tried to model, okay, what would it look like? And it's interesting. I reflect now, and because we had the beautiful opportunity, thank you to Christy Mack, to build a building. And now I look at that building and I'm like, that's a great metaphor for the system change. So there were like, I think four, maybe five clinic rooms, that the rest of the space was educational and experiential and therapeutic. And I thought that's, and you know, we had all sorts of providers working together. We had health coaches. And so it was a really interesting model. And then I realized, okay, we've modeled it, but still the system isn't like the rest of Duke wasn't functioning that way. So I thought, then the VA came along and the VA said, "We want to transform the culture." You know, the name of that office that I helped build, Patient-Centered Care and Cultural Transformation. I didn't put that term in there. They had that term. And I thought, are they serious about this? Like, do they really know what they're getting themselves into? Because cultural transformation is tough, and it's not for the faint of heart. And it takes at least 10 years, in my opinion. And I said all that to them and they said, "We are in." And so that was the first I got to think about this as a systems transformation and really to say, "What is it going to take, and how do we drive system transformation?" So I think the big takeaway for me is that, and you know, there's a woman who's no longer living, but she's written one of the best books on systems thinking. I know her name is Donella Meadows. And she said, "When you know a system has been transformed is when the purpose of that system has changed." And so when I think about the purpose, the dominant paradigm, again, I'm simplifying, but when we think about the purpose of healthcare today, it's really largely disease management, right? And the purpose, as we talked about for whole health is helping people live a full and meaningful life by them taking charge of all aspects, mental, emotional, spiritual, physical of their wellbeing. So that is a big paradigm shift. So, sorry, this is a long answer, but I feel like this is like the really important part of this dialogue is, okay, sounds good. How do we actually do it? And so the opportunity in the VA was a great, great lesson because we knew we had to do system transformation. There was a reaction when I got there, and it helps that I wasn't from the VA, so I didn't know how I was supposed to do it. Beginner's mind is always a good thing. And so somebody said to me, "Well, aren't you just going to, you're in central office, you're in headquarters. Why don't you just create the program and then mandate that the facilities and the clinicians do it?" And I was like, "You can't drive a cultural transformation by mandating." So one big piece was grassroots. Like all of the wisdom and power comes from the people doing the work in the front lines, like all the practitioners doing functional medicine across the country and world, right? So those people know what needs to change way better than somebody that's kind of in an administrative role, as I was at that time. And so we really empowered the front lines. We wanted to learn from them. So we opened up all these channels of conversation and that's what led to understanding the model that we implemented in the VA has the clinical piece, but it's also supported by peers who are doing the empowerment piece. So peers who are trained to help people explore what matters most to them, what they want their health for, what is a full and meaningful life for them. And when people get really clear about that, and I do think that's an interface with functional medicine, I'll come back to that if we want to. Is that, that element, because prior to this work, I was practicing while I was at Duke, I thought, very good, holistic women's healthcare. But I hadn't yet understood the significance of starting from a different place and starting from this exploration of meaning and purpose that drives intrinsic motivation. When you're talking about functional medicine, and I was a patient of Mark Hyman's for a long time, and I still, I'm a patient of functional medicine, and I mean, my first meeting was like, okay, cut out gluten, cut out dairy, cut out this, cut out that. And I'm like, how do I do that? Like, do I really want to do that? I'm not even sure I want to do that. I think this intrinsic motivation applies for all of our work. Anyway, so we went, okay, we need a peer piece, and that's not in the clinical paradigm. And then once people are intrinsically motivated, they still don't have the skills necessarily to make these changes. How do we do skill building and support? So that was really done through well-being centers and all that was in conjunction with the clinical model. So developing that whole shift took a couple of years, and it came from the front line, because first we tried to shove it into the clinical encounter. I'm sure you can imagine how that went. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm supposed to help somebody discover their sense of meaning and purpose while managing this list of challenges, and so much learning there. And then the rest of the work was really around, how do we drive? How do we align the incentives? So once we understood the model and what we wanted to shift to, we had to make sure the finances were aligned so that facilities were actually getting reimbursed for those, the peer facilities, the peer facilitators, the whole health services, the integrative approaches, et cetera. We had to make sure performance evaluations were reflecting, are you focused on whole health? Because we get what we measure. So if we're not measuring that, people aren't going to do it. So there were many systems changes that we took on once we did the grassroots piece of help us understand those of you working directly with patients, in this case veterans, what could this look like? If this is our vision, how do we do it? How do we operationalize it? Then we really took on the systems issues of aligning all those elements of the system to really make the system shift and the culture to shift. So big topic, really big topic. - You've left me so many treasures. I've got to go back and remember where all the treasure chests I want to dive into. But first of all, just hearing you talk and you keep saying meeting and purpose, and I know that all of our functional medicine practitioners who are listening are picturing the matrix and the center of that functional medicine matrix. That's the mental, emotional, spiritual component that's really focused on meaning and purpose. So I'm seeing these parallels between the whole health movement and functional medicine. - Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it really is. It's a great alignment. And I think one of the opportunities that we have now is to build more bridges and integrate. You know, that's when real change will happen. - Absolutely. And as we talk about building those bridges and facilitating this cultural shift, you said that you anticipate sometimes it's going to take 10 years to see that paradigm shift. If someone is at the beginning of that journey, how do they mentally prepare and stay motivated for what could be a really long and challenging road? - Well, here's the good news, I think, Kalea, I do think large system transformation takes a long time. Now, that doesn't mean every individual person starts at the beginning of that timeline and has to do it on their own. That's the beauty of a movement. And I think we are at the beginning of really creating, like integrating and aligning all of these efforts that have been going on for a very long time into a cohesive movement. And so the great thing is, it's not every individual person has to start now and in 10 years, they'll be like enlightened, or they'll be like, check the box, "I transformed the system." But rather that the system in general, the culture in general, will typically take that long. But we have been on that journey now for a little bit of time. And I know we're all conscious of the chaotic times we're in, and a lot of those are distressing. And one of my favorite phrases is, you can't have breakthroughs without breakdowns. And that's really true. So if everything's going dandy and the system is working great for everyone, good luck trying to really have a change in the transformation of that system. When it's in breakdown, and I think we would all say it is, now there's a real opportunity. So I'm up for that. - You're right. There's some momentum around the movement already, so we're not all entering in at the very beginning. And thinking about the sole provider, the single provider, who is maybe feeling overwhelmed. They feel stuck. They feel like they're just in these nested healthcare systems. They don't know how to change it. How can that practitioner do their part to help improve healthcare and change the system and contribute to this whole movement? - I think there's so much that can be done, and this may sound, I can't underscore the importance of what I'm about to say and it might sound like to somebody like that doesn't seem very significant. I am telling you, being a leader in the conversation, so I don't care, I mean, in whatever community you're with, so with an individual patient in your community, helping people understand this vision that we're talking about, that it is a transformation in what healthcare is about. Like, if we can all hold that message. I think the hardest thing about driving transformation, or I use the words, because I think it is a radical redesign of what healthcare is. The hardest thing is not letting that get diluted as it gets more popular. And that's what I think what I'm observing now, like everywhere I look, there's whole health this, or whole person that, and then you ask people what it means. And what I'm hearing, which is distressing to me is, "Oh, that's just the new word. You know, it used to be alternative medicine, and that's just, it's a synonym for everything else." And we're missing the danger in that is people start using the terms but we've lost the real opportunity for transformation. So I think what every, each and every practitioner, provider can do is be a voice. And the language, the words should be whatever words are comfortable for each practitioner. But the communication that this is a completely different way of thinking about health and well-being, that really does empower people and is proactive that the more we can have a bunch of messengers out there, like bringing that into the dialogue, then we have the opportunity to really drive the transformation. If it gets completely diluted, and it's very, very, then we've lost an opportunity. So that's what I would request. I mean, that's what I'm hoping is that there's this fabulous community of functional medicine practitioners, and the more we're all singing from the same page, and realizing, I think sometimes the other thing is that people, especially if you've been practicing functional medicine for a while, that sometimes people don't realize how radical it is. You know, I mean, they might think it's radical because they're not getting insurance coverage, etc. Like they know it's outside of the box. But from a cultural perspective, it's a massive transformation, a big shift in how we think about health and well-being, and so being a voice for that, if everyone's a voice for that, now we've got some cohesion around a movement. - Oh yes. I'm thinking about someone like myself who maybe does some teaching. I teach at university-level medical students. And I'm thinking, wow, what a perfect audience to expose them to what the real meaning of whole health is, knowing that they'll go out fresh into the world and inspired and ready to spread the word. - Absolutely. That's awesome. - You mentioned that as you worked to redesign these systems, you were met with some resistance. - Oh. - Do you feel now that you're able to anticipate where resistance might come from and kind of solve from that before you propose changes? Is that part of the evolution? - I've gotten a lot better at that. I think, going back to the Andy Weil's days, when I was so stunned, I just couldn't believe it. And one of the biggest opposers was the head of the cancer center. And I was like, what is this about? I just couldn't comprehend why there was so much conflict and opposition. And there's a story to that, but I'll probably skip it. But I will say at the time Andy gave me this, there was a cartoon this was 1996 to 2000, so a long time ago. And he gave me this cartoon out of some probably, I don't know what publication. And it was these two kind of archetypal guys in white coats and stethoscopes walking out of what looked like a conventional hospital or something. And the one guy says to the other, "I'll tell you what I'm worried about. I'm worried that we're becoming the alternative." And I realized that that is a huge part of this resistance that I hadn't realized before, I was just thinking, "Oh, like this is better for everyone." And I realized that people were feeling very threatened. It was almost like a religion. Like they had gone to this church or this was their belief system. And they put years into training and money into this. And they felt very threatened by, "You're saying this is inadequate?" And rather than feeling a part of the transformation, they felt threatened by it and fear-based. So I think coming from that, understanding that has helped me. And then when I really meet resistance, well, I guess I will tell that cancer center story. So I have learned to dive into that, and it may be useful for practitioners. Like if in your conversations or in your neighborhood or whatever, you're finding somebody that's really like resistant in a way that almost seems a little outside of rational. You know, they're not asking questions and wanting to understand. They're like, they have a stance. If you can dive into the resistance, it's sometimes really interesting. Asking questions with inquiry and curiosity, like, "Well, tell me more." So I did this with the head of the cancer center and what we finally got to, I was like, "What is underneath of this resistance?" It took a while. We were in this meeting for probably a half an hour before we got to this moment. And he said, "I am afraid," he said, "Cancer treatments only advance by doing research that's of late-stage cancers, people with late-stage cancer. And I'm afraid that if this takes off, people will not enroll in any studies anymore. They'll choose integrative alternative medicine instead." I was like, bam. Like, who knew? Like, I would never have guessed that. I mean, so I learned from that. And then we could talk about that. Then we could. But I think the resistance is always a sign of something, like peel away the layers, what's under there, and build bridges. And then oftentimes those people that were resisting will become your greatest allies. I mean, it's so fun to see that. And now you have partners in places where you used to have resistance. - Right, well, can we dive into that a little bit more? Because I think there is this perception that a lot of what we do in functional medicine or with the whole health movement is adjunct or complementary or alternative. Have you seen, I mean, in the VA, as this becomes more and more standard and outcomes are reported and we see how effective this is, are you seeing that change a little bit, this cultural shift where now this is More normal and it is considered less alternative? - Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the challenges. And you're an expert in functional medicine, Kalea. I am not. So, please, I'm interested in your opinion of what I'm about to say. I think that one of the challenges for functional medicine is people are quick to say, "It's all about the labs and the supplements," and they don't get the paradigm shift. And then attached to that is, and so only people with assets can even afford functional medicine. So I think that that is a big misunderstanding, and is it becomes an opportunity for people to dismiss something to put it aside, to say, "Well, that's good if you can afford it or if you have access to it or whatever, but that's not affecting the whole approach." So I think it comes back to how can we understand and communicate that it's bigger than that? It's a complete changing of the way we think about medicine to root causes and health care, and a complete change in how we approach things. So I was in the VA when Terry Wahls' book came out, you know, "The Wahls Protocol." And I had a friend with MS, my neighbor, and I said, "We should read this book together, because she has MS and you have MS, da-da-da." So I started this little book club in my neighborhood, and then I mentioned it to one of my colleagues in the VA, and she's like, "Trace, you know Terry Wahls works for the VA?" And I had no idea that she worked for the VA. I was like, "Really?" Yeah, she's in Iowa in one of the VAs there, and she does this with veterans. And I said, "Okay, I have to see this." So I got a little posse and we went to visit Terry Wahls, because what I wanted to see was what I'd heard and what is true is she did it completely in the context of the VA. So only the labs that the VA already covered, like not lots of out-of-pocket supplements. These were your archetypal veterans in Iowa, and huge nutritional changes, and huge, and she was getting phenomenal, and still does, phenomenal results within the context of a mainstream medical system. Now, it doesn't mean we don't want to change that medical system, but it does mean there's a message there, I think, for people to understand that it is a much broader and much more accessible approach, functional medicine, than the tagline of, oh, it's supplements and lab tests. But you are living in the real world of functional medicine. So correct me, and I'd love your comments on that. - you're spot on. And I'm actually really glad that you brought that up because there is a perception that functional medicine is labs and supplements. And what I normally say is we have access to a lot of fancy labs, but they're just one tool to help us look a little bit deeper. And I think functional medicine docs just tend to be the type of practitioner who's willing to look under the hood and do a little bit deeper of an investigation. So labs tend to be utilized. But what I hope people understand is that we have our tool, the functional medicine matrix, which is so foundational to the way we practice. And at the very foundation of that is our modifiable lifestyle factors. Sleep, relaxation, nutrition, relationships, exercise. And much of that is no cost, these lifestyle modifications. And really every successful treatment plan has the lifestyle factors featured as the prominent interventions. And I hope that message becomes more clear and I think is very well aligned with whole health too. - Yes, yeah. And if I can hook that to the whole health system, because you're absolutely right. And what I love about with the approach of whole health is that emphasis on empowering people and equipping people. So when the practitioner says, "Here are all the lifestyle changes that you can make," and they're not easy. If somebody's only eaten one way their whole life or move their body or not one way their whole life, it's hard. So I think the cool thing is if we succeed and really transforming how healthcare is practiced and it's out, it's a clinic plus peer facilitation groups that anyone can join that really help people get intrinsically motivated and well-being centers where they learn to eat a different way and cook a different way, manage their stress a different way, and move their body a different way, you can begin to see how then that person is supported in really taking on those recommendations, because now you have a system that's designed and has core competencies to support that. Currently we don't. It's crazy, right? We tell people all the time, "Oh, lose weight, exercise more, reduce your stress." And then we usually say, "See you in a year. Hope that turns out well." And then we're surprised when people are quote unquote, non-compliant or a little less obnoxious, non-adherent. Well, come on, people are trying to get through the day and unless they're really dealing, and I know you see this in your practice, unless they're dealing with something acute that has got their attention, it's really hard for them to be motivated to make those kinds of changes. When we have a system that's designed to do that that has as a core competency empowering people and equipping people with those recommendations, now we're cooking. - Absolutely. Okay. I have to acknowledge, because we've talked about meaning and purpose so much, I'm seeing multiple opportunities here. So we have our patient who they're being guided to make these modifiable lifestyle changes based on what means the most to them. How can we get you to do the things that you love and to live this purposeful life? We have our peer facilitators that they're probably feeling so much meaning and purpose, giving of their experience and their skills and talents to someone else and seeing their life improve. And then we have the practitioner who's doing medicine that they feel inspired about and their patient is getting better. Like what a magical triad! - That's it! Oh my gosh! You just described it better than I could have. That is the triad. I mean, and it really is, it is so beautiful to see. And then you also touched on something, Kalea, that I think is another real distinction is the locus of control shifts in this approach. One of the terms I use is shifting from being medicalized to being humanized. And so yes, medically we're going to look at that person and with that person and really prioritize medically the changes we think that would give them the biggest bang for the buck. And this recognizes in the context with the peers and the well-being centers that that may not be where they're ready to start. So the concept of they take on the changes that they are ready to begin with, I didn't think was a big deal, but I've learned that's a big, that's a big shift for people. I mean, I've been asked so many times, well, how do you get them to do? How do you get them to do what you know, they should do? I'm like, okay, this is a different approach. This is of course being in partnership, educating people, but then exploring one of my, I have many, many, many stories around this because it's just person after person after person who I'll just give you, this is the one that pops into my mind as a gentleman. He's a veteran and he's a smoker. And every time he went into the health system they told him, "You need to stop smoking, blah blah blah." And he just lost it one day. And he said, "You people do not understand that sometimes the only thing standing between me and pulling a trigger is that cigarette. And I am not ready. I can't." And nobody understood that. You know, we were doing the medical paradigm. And so when people really understood what he was dealing with and his depression and post-traumatic stress, he said, "I want to start. Yeah, I used to do Tai chi." There's actually a great video on this, or film on this. "I used to do Tai chi. I'd like to start there." And through that door, I mean, there's so many doorways into our health and healing. You know, guess what? Eventually he stopped smoking because he actually got to a place where he's healthy enough and was able to do that. But it wasn't because of the top-down medical expert model. It was really driven from him. - As I think about implementation of this model, and you mentioned there's financial barriers and time barriers and reimbursement, but you just made me think it's also having practitioners on board who are willing to ask those questions that can be vulnerable and scary. And you have to be prepared to hold those answers that you might not have anticipated. - You are so right. And the thing I would add to that is that is a shift for us as healthcare practitioners is us shifting from being medical to human, meaning we are trained to think our job is to fix the problems that people present with. Like, that's your job. And this is a different approach. It's like, yes, of course we're going to fix problems where and when we can. But a lot of people don't want to ask those kinds of questions because they feel like, "Oh my gosh, if I reveal the fact that this person's life is a mess, now I have to fix the life," and so understanding that it's actually just asking those questions can be so important. And holding that person as a human being, not a medical problem you need to fix, is a huge shift. And it is life changing for the person. And I've seen it be life changing for the providers too. - There's layers upon layers of shifts! - There are! - In this whole model! Individual systems are mental, emotional, spiritual, health. It's all shifting, which is beautiful. I want to take a moment and hear about your latest role at Southern California University of Health. You're the executive director of the Doctor of Whole Health Leadership Program, which sounds incredible. Will you tell us a little bit about this. What's the goal of this program? - Yeah, it's perfectly aligned with this dialogue. Right, Kalea? So here we are. I wasn't familiar with SCU until they approached me to get some input on a new doctoral program they wanted to do. And initially they were thinking about a doctorate in integrative medicine or integrative health. And I said, "I don't really get that." Like, I don't really understand why one would want a doctorate in that area. But I was quick to say, "But I'll tell you what the nation needs." The nation needs leaders. I mean, everyone's now calling for this transformation that we're talking about. But, A, do people really, as we said, understand deeply what it means and then have the skillset to drive system transformation? That's a different kind of leadership than leading an established organization. Both are good, but they're very different. To be a catalyst and a driver of transformational change is a unique kind of leadership. So we were brainstorming with SCU, and I said, "I think there needs to be a program, and this is a doctoral program, that prepares people to do that." And so they said, "That sounds great." And then one thing led to the next, and I created the curriculum with a cohort of amazing faculty, and we started the first class in the fall. The second class just started last week. And it's really exciting. It's an amazing opportunity, and it's the first degree of its kind. So, yeah, if people feel drawn to help be a change agent and want further education in that, check it out. - I always want to go back to school. So I'm like, "And tell us more, Tracy." - Well, I mean, most people are mid to late career. You don't have to be, but we're finding, and it's kind of not surprising, just to your point, Kalea, is people who are like, I'm at the point now, I want to take this on and people from all walks of life. Very interesting. Very interesting. So, yeah, it's definitely early adopter pioneer type people, and really exciting. I want to take it. There's actually a lot of the courses. I'm like, the one right now is on US health systems and policy, and the history of health care in the United States and stuff. I'm like, I need to learn that. I don't actually know that. Yeah, Kevin Ergil is teaching that. - I'm sure you could get in there. I'm sure they'd let you sit back and audit the class, right? - Yeah. - I mean, we've talked about in all of your learnings, trying to implement these systems, barriers and hesitations and just structural issues. Are these the leaders that will help to guide our future organizations through these obstacles and help them to implement programs like whole health? - That is the goal. And I think as with anything, like in the VA, there was my team in my office, and there's still a great team there. And so the kind of leadership skill we're talking about is very useful if you're in that kind of role, but that is only effective if the people, the front lines are aligned. So it takes both. You know what I'm saying? Like, good, great leaders are nothing. Have you ever seen that YouTube video called "The First Follower?" It's ancient, old, but you should watch it. It's like that, like I was the crazy leader person, but if nobody stood up to follow, nothing would have happened. And so it's true for these leaders, too, these students who will be graduating with the Doctorate in Whole Health Leadership, they will be prepared to take on big leadership roles wherever they are. And that will only be effective if they are joined with the people living this day to day. - Are the students more a medical background or business background, or is it a mix? - It's a mix. We kept it. I was really hoping we wouldn't. No offense to other physicians like me, but I was like, "Oh, please don't let this be all MDs," because that's not how you drive change, right? So it's a lovely mix of people, both clinicians, but also health educators, administrators. I mean, it's going to take a broad spectrum of people and experiences to really lead this transformation, so we're really happy to see that kind of diversity. - Oh, so exciting. It's the perfect time. I think, like you mentioned before, there's a lot of momentum about this, and I think this type of conversation will be a big theme at the upcoming annual conference. And I know you're involved in several sessions at our upcoming AIC. Without giving too much away, will you just give us a little taste of what our attendees can expect to talk about or learn or the types of conversations you'll be engaging in? - Sure thing. I'm excited about it, and I have been really lucky to be a part of the planning group. And I'm like, "Are you guys sure you want this much of us?" But I think it's just in the spirit we're doing, Kalea, which is this is when we all dance together, real change can happen. And if we don't, this is a line from a poem. But if we don't, the next world will look a lot like this one. So that's the moment in time that we're in. So let us dance to together, and how do we do that? So I'm doing a keynote on the first day with Mary Jo Kreitzer, who's an amazing leader, nurse leader in spirituality at University of Minnesota. And we're going to build in an experience for people in that because I think if people don't have a personal experience, their intrinsic motivation won't be as strong as if they do, so hopefully people will be game to dive into that. And later we have a panel with Joe Pizzorno and Russ Greenfield and David Rakel bringing the whole, trying to weave together all the pieces. And I think I'm doing a luncheon or some sort of a roundtable for people who are just interested in leading and want to have more of this dialogue in person and say, "How do I take this on in the world in which I'm living?" - I love this systems thinking. It's spirituality and medicine. It's the therapeutic encounter and the therapeutic partnership. That's what we need. That's perfect. - I'm excited. I can't wait. It's almost here too. - Well, looking ahead, what's next for you and the whole health movement? - Ha. Well I co-founded, when I left the Whole Health Institute, I co-founded a non-profit called Cornerstone Collaboration for Societal Change. And that was before the current degree of chaos and I think even greater need for societal change. So we're a small group, but we believe, we look around and there's so many great people and so many great efforts, but they're very much siloed. Just like even we're talking about in terms of functional medicine and what was called integrative medicine and integrative health, et cetera. So our real goal is to help integrate and align those efforts. So we'd like to begin doing very strategic convenings and then catalyzing change so we build networks that can stay connected as we work together across time. It was a strategy we used in the VA to try to, how do we create change across this massive system all across the country? And that approach of really finding the silos and connecting them and allowing them to work together in a unified way that they discover together is really a high-level picture of what we're going to be up to. - Well, I know there are many agents of change listening to this episode and feeling some inspiration and ready to go out there into the world. What advice do you have for those individuals who are ready, they want to take action, what can they take away from today's episode to help them just take the first step? - Well, I would say first of all, I would like to acknowledge how hard it is to be doing what people have been doing, like slogging away for a long time and practicing in a way where the system was not aligned. And so I really want to say deep bow of gratitude, and people should recognize that for themselves. I mean, I think everyone's so hard working and committed, and they sometimes don't pause long enough to go, "This is has been hard." And it's hard because you're working in a way that the system's not designed to support. So I would say thank you and recognizing that, and that by doing that, you have been a change agent in this system that's not aligned. And now hopefully we can work together to get that system really transformed and aligned in a way where you can go, "Oh, I'm not fighting quite as much. I am actually leading, and people are benefiting personally and professionally." So I think that's where we're at. - Beautifully said. And I want to thank you so much for your time today and sharing your experience and also your really authentic passion and energy around the work that needs to be done. I think sometimes, like you mentioned, we need an infusion of that type of optimistic energy, even when it's hard. So thank you so much for sharing your insights, your experience, your advice for what's to come. We're so excited to learn from you at AIC, and it's just been a pleasure chatting with you today. - Oh, you too, Kalea. I learned a lot from you, and I'm looking forward to learning more. - We'll see you all at AIC. Discover the latest research and innovative clinical practices at IFM's annual international conference. For more information, visit aic.ifm.org. The future is functional.